This was a collaboration between all the staff, not all of this was written 100% by me. Before I begin, the purpose of this thread is to directly address the recent issues building up to the forum wipe that took place over, not only the past month but for over a year now. We wouldn’t normally do this at all mostly since there’s usually no reason to make a public statement as the situations we get into can be resolved in private, but because of this thread, we’ve been forced to. Be ready, this is a long road. There are images in here too. Spoiler: "Feedback" 7/5/18 The full conversation is here if you want to read it. This was the first time that Dez had actually voiced her concerns with MM and she did make two good points: the first being inactive staff in power still. That’s actually a problem and we fixed it that same day. The second thing would be the whole thing with John and why she thought the community was toxic, which I admit is our faults for not taking care of that at all. But the other points were just extremely vague and hard for us to work with. If Dez couldn’t show us anything to prove these problems were real, we can’t learn from any mistakes we’ve made in the past. Anything that she couldn’t actually provide any proof for, she just wouldn’t answer and eventually when Warren asked her about the “hierarchy” she went completely silent until Vash came in, seemingly out of nowhere. The only “example” of the hierarchy that Dez mentioned isn’t even her own point, it was Kim’s. Not only was the only evidence for her argument not her own, it didn’t even show a hierarchy, it was just a lot of dumb joke roles that were either out of use, or they were color roles for donators. None of them (aside from the obvious ones like Staff) had any power over channels. None of these roles suggested that there was some order of power among the staff. So, Dez suggests there’s a hierarchy and doesn’t provide any evidence of this being the case other than bringing up gossip or hearsay. The most credit we can give is to Vash who made the statement that: Vash states that he heard that all the staff originated from one place in a server together. He gives no other information about this statement. He just says that because he heard this from someone, that must mean that there’s inherent nepotism involved in picking new staff. However, correlation doesn’t prove causation. Moving on to the next point: There’s a recurring theme throughout this conversation with Dez. She makes a lot of broad statements that she claims are problems with Maplemation but provides little to no evidence to back them up. Not going to cover everything, but she does it the entire time this conversation in feedback and suggestions is going. She claims that she spoke to some staff members and just outright told them they were inactive and they just agreed with her. When questioned about this, she responds with “I don’t wanna throw them under the bus.” She claimed there were people who were currently a part of staff that were so apathetic and inactive that she just PMed them and told them they were inactive and they just agreed. She claims that inactive staff are a problem with Maplemation that needs to be fixed. When presented with the opportunity to give more information about this problem, she withholds valuable information that could improve the forum. She presents this information to the staff because she believed we were unaware of this problem, so how are we supposed to fix this issue with inactive staff if we aren’t told who is inactive? She then goes on to say this when pressed further about not giving any further information: As previously stated, why would she not give the names of the inactive staff so that we can speak to them and take action if she wanted something to happen? That blatantly contradicts her initial statement. Dez later states: Who are these friends? If we spoke to them personally, we’d be able to gather information from their personal experiences, compile all of it and try to brainstorm for solutions. She doesn’t describe their specific situations, she doesn’t give any specific names, she doesn’t give us any information to work off of. She claims to have come here and spoken up about these things in “an effort to make things better” but fails to give any information that could allow the staff to better the situation she’s complaining about. Just to illustrate this point: Dez has established 4 main problems that we could gather from this initial meeting: Maplemation is unwelcoming, has a “toxic” community, the staff are inactive and there’s a hierarchy within the staff. Two out of these four points she has introduced so far have actually had any weight and clear evidence to support it. Aquila was the only staff that was brought up by name, by Kim, and we fixed that the following day. And then there’s the toxicity. Dez had no real defense for this when this was initially brought up and Kim had to step in and provide an example. The art thief role. This was a genuine mistake on our part for letting this role be given to someone and for them to be publicly shamed for what they did. It was wrong and we offer a formal apology for this behavior. It was immature, disrespectful and shortsighted of us to do something like this to you. However, a single role does not mean that the entire community is toxic. I say this because there’s no other circumstance that has been provided to illustrate the toxicity of the community. Not to mention, again, Kim was the only one to provide a decent example of toxicity so far at this point. However, Dez does attempt to provide another example via the situation with SmashmannJohn: I did look through and I found the conversation that Dez and Vash were talking about here and while it did start off toxic with everybody coming after John because he lied about his age, the situation resolved itself. Everybody apologized to him and began to treat him normally. If you don’t believe me, take a look: The way that Dez was telling the story made it seem like John left the server, but he’s still here. He had actually typed a lot after this whole situation, so I think he has moved past it. I admit that Kim should have ended this before it broke out into more shit, but at the end of the day everything was resolved and everybody treated John normally after that. That’s what matters. If you didn’t notice, Vash was actually involved in this as well, so I wonder why he didn’t actually address the fact that it ended well? Strange. Moving on though: Kim decides to bring up the moralistic decision-making that comes with being a staff-member and Vash just sweeps it under the rug by saying “The main point is deal with situations of toxicity; it’s not about being right or wrong” “It’s about being a staff member. Make a community people can enjoy.” That’s a gross understatement of the responsibility of a staff member. The reason why the people that are staff are staff at this moment is because they have shown the ability to decide what is the right thing to do, if not that, the willingness to learn what is the right thing to do. It isn’t just black and white whether people are being toxic or not in the Discord server. People say things all the time to each other that seem mean to each other. People in the server know this. However, with the context of knowing who’s friends with who and what exactly is being said and how it’s said, these statements can vary from being offensive cruel statements, to being playful banter. It just isn’t that simple. Vash illustrates this point himself with this statement, albeit with different intent: He says human behavior is a complicated subject, but then proceeds to boil it down to if what he sees or what Dez sees is something they view as toxicity, it must be toxicity. It’s not that simple. To further establish this point, Kim states it clearly here: The staff don’t just act on what they view as toxic. Although it is our responsibility as staff to maintain the forums and keep people civil, it is also the responsibility of people who aren’t staff to speak with the staff about things that are happening. There are 604 people on the Discord server and the forum has a bit more people that use it. It is physically impossible to monitor everything that is happening and/or being said at all times on both the Discord and the forum as well as keeping track of who everyone is. The staff are capable of deciding what is unjust and stepping in and deciding to do something when it is necessary. However, it is also the responsibility of the members of the community, to speak to the staff and report trouble or things they feel uncomfortable with when it is happening. Dez and Vash are trying to lay all of the responsibility on the staff to just keep track of everything and that’s just wrong. This isn’t an implication, see here: A closed mouth doesn’t get fed. The staff are here for a reason. It is just impossible to keep track of every single individual person in our community here. We are here, and we care for you. Every single one of you, if you let us care for you. You all need to speak to us if there’s trouble. Just relying on us to be at the right place at the right time, isn’t a guaranteed solution to your problem. You’re much more certain to get a solution to a problem you have if you DM someone directly. This is your community just as much as it is the staff’s. If you feel like there’s a problem and no one is noticing it, talk to someone. If you aren’t trying to make anyone aware of something you think is a problem so they can fix it, you can’t blame people for not trying to fix what you think is wrong. You have a responsibility to make sure no one is getting bullied or treated unfairly just as much as the staff does. Tell us and we’ll take care of it. We’re human, and we make mistakes and need help just like you all do. We need to work together. Kait provides more reasons as to why people don’t talk to the staff: Again, these two statements link back to PR and MM not being the same. This is a public server and MM is a public forum. You aren’t guaranteed to know everyone and to refuse to ask for help from someone simply because you don’t know the staff really is a personal problem. The staff aren’t obligated to get to know the members of their forum personally. It makes people feel more comfortable, but it is not a necessity to have personal relationships with members and it's also impossible to get to know all of these people. Furthermore, Dez and Vash both just understate the judgement it requires to actually administrate a Discord and forum. It’s not rocket science, but they both give the impression that they believe the way we are doing things is inefficient, yet, when asked to give help to the staff or advice on how we could do better, all Vash had to say was just that human behavior is complicated and “it isn’t hard to see someone using their status to make jokes” etc. Nothing to help the staff. No advice, nothing. They, again, just brush off the opportunity to give us guidance and help the staff better themselves so they can, in their eyes, run the forum and Discord better. Moreover on this subject: Kim decides to compare PR and MM and the way they handle people joking around in there. MM is a public server, not everyone here is going to be friends. Not everyone is going to bother to befriend everyone they joke with. Dez states this herself. It does Dez no good for her argument that bullying is blatant and obvious to point out, regardless of who’s looking at it if she’s going to introduce this information. She’s defeating the purpose of her own argument. More on comparing PR and MM: Moving on: We’ve discussed why we approached Dez’s criticisms of Maplemation the way we did, so we won’t be retreading that same ground. Despite that, it is worthy of note that Vash throughout this discussion spoke in an aggressive, accusatory tone the entire time. When he wasn’t doing that, he was actively attempting to victimize himself and Dez by claiming that we were just “nitpicking every part of her post like it would make it any easier to understand” At the time it came off as disingenuous and hurtful. Not only that, but it completely distracts from fixing the problems that Dez was discussing in the first place. More on this: However, at this time, the staff was of a different mind and we believed despite the crude way of introducing themselves and this information to us, they were coming out of the goodness of their hearts to improve the forum and this community. So we gave them the benefit of the doubt. We asked for more things that people have said about MM to get some vague idea of what to do on how to improve the forum and got this: There isn’t a lot to say here. No information on who, just vague statements that we can’t really do anything with. If these are concerns that people have, they should be brought to us, described to us in detail so we can come up with a plan to improve ourselves and the community. Just saying “MM SUCKS”, “The people here are lame” and “Let niggas know maple animations still exist” doesn’t give us anything to work with. The most concrete idea we got from this was what Dally said, reach out, social media. But then Casey says that’s wrong and says “Didn’t start out with maple” “Aquila started out on Stillframmed doing tohou shit” “We have to reach out” “”Not fucking stay secluded”. So what Dally said was wrong, but then Casey proceeded to provide some statements that seemed relevant but not exactly a cohesive statement that we could gather things from. Just “reach out”. Then the conversation concludes. We want to make it clear that the staff were genuinely trying our best to gather information at this moment and there wasn’t a whole lot to really get. The ideas we gathered from this were: Be more welcoming, be less toxic(?), reach out to other communities(?), get rid of inactive staff, and clear up the roles and general organization of the Discord. The statements with question marks besides them are like that because they had no real plan or advice for us. They were just one-off statements. Nearly every opportunity to give valuable information to us to help improve the forum and the way we run things was not expanded upon so we were left with nothing. No plan, just complaints. For a group that claimed to have such a strong desire to improve the forum, “revive” it and want to coexist with it, they made a very confused and poor first impression. Spoiler: Contradictions 7/5/18 - 7/7/18 After discussing what happened in the staff chat, we realized that a lot of the stuff that Dez and some others said was very confusing. A lot of it for the aforementioned reasons. However, there were even more contradictions than we initially believed to be there from before in her posts. The context for these screenshots is Warren describing all of this to SuperKim. Dez contradicting herself about the Shulkle and Kim being so good at working publicly. Dez claiming she can’t speak for other people despite the fact she introduced herself by speaking for other people. Dez telling different stories about who she speaks to when it comes to problems in MM. Dez comparing PR and MM some more while also saying PR and MM shouldn’t be compared. Comparing MM and PR some more. The screenshot Dez put to compare how PR greets people with how MM doesn’t. Comparing the two again. Kait saying she doesn’t feel comfortable talking to any staff besides Kim and Shulkle because she knows them despite the fact that she is in a private friend group with them and would know them more personally in there. Scrolling through a few out of the 11 threads she made: 1st thread 2nd thread 3rd thread The same people replied to her threads and she usually got an average of 3-4 replies, usually getting up to 5-6 in some cases. Pushed for mod apps to be public in MM and then proceed to not take their own advice. There wasn't a channel for it at all, they came to a decision on their own (as staff) and yet if they thought public mod apps in MM was such a good idea, why didn't they stick with it when they opened up their own server? Spoiler: Raids 7/5/18 & 7/9/18 These happened pretty quick, so I’ll just throw in the screenshots. First one is pretty simple: people from PR spam some image that just says “Who is Karasu?” Dez herself admits this is a raid as well: Then comes the raid that Dez continues to deny, saying in her doc about her kick “We also spammed the Staff of MapleMation with…..(get this!)….Compliments~ Wanna see?” Here it is." This happened on July 9th and was a clear attempt at her trying to get our attention with all the spamming of the staff role. They wanted a response out of us. Dez says at the end of this document that she was being serious, but seeing how the conversation on July 5th ended I can’t really believe that. None of the staff did either and we decided at that moment if Dez, Vash, or Grace left the chat, they wouldn’t be able to come back. Notice how they all left at the same time after shitting up the chat. Pretty sketchy, but ya know. It wasn’t a raid according to Dez. She even says in her doc that “That being said, I will only be addressing the first (and only) ‘raid’.” Which was the “Who is Karasu?” raid. Spoiler: Docs 3/7/19 & 5/15/19 Dez has made (as of writing this) 2 docs after I kicked her from Maplemation and they were both written based on a reaction, full of emotion and were more vents than they were criticism as they just ignored evidence and were focused on the "unjust" nature of whatever happened. They mostly contain the same things, but the main thing that I want to address is her kick. I kicked Dez back in March because she was not supposed to be in the Discord. The staff at the time had decided that people involved in the raid will stay out of the chat, but Kim made a mistake and Dez was let in. Even if she could be in here I still had plenty of reason to boot her out, namely the infamous “MM wack.” Along with her funny “jokes” about having MM blacklisted, I see literally no reason to keep her around. Here's a compliation of all the times she just randomly said "MM wack." I made a gif at some point, but that wasn't enough so here you go. Shulkle had tried to speak to her about this behavior and this is what she had to say: Me kicking her after all of this is my call to make, but she doesn’t think so and tried to tell me how it should have been handled. The docs also have some criticism on MM as a whole, but if you ask me, they aren’t even worth bothering with. I’ve read them both several times over and I ask myself the same question every single time: “Why is she writing this?” Dez has said that “there’s a hierarchy” and she “doesn’t want to see this community die” but I really do think we’ll be fine without her critique, especially from someone who comes off this condescending. At any point she could've come and talked to a staff member in private instead of these huge docs. She still had Shulkle added at this time and she said she was close with him so why didn't she try to have a regular conversation with him? Doc 1 Written in response to her being kicked. Doc 2 Written in response to Casey being kicked. Here they are if you want to read them. Also here are some mirrors just in case something happens to those docs. Mirror 1 Mirror 2 Spoiler: Disrespect 7/28/18, 3/8/19, & 5/14/19 I asked Warren about his situation with Casey and this is what he had to say: "Casey DM’d me on Discord, letting me know SmasherBlock made an appearance on the forum. Casey, as well as a select group of other people had a grudge against him for reasons that aren’t related to the forum. However, with the way he approached me, I knew that he thought it was funny that he arrived. I didn’t respond because I knew he was just trying to get me to join in on him laughing at SmasherBlock. However, I did know that this was a sign that something bad was going to happen and I checked the profile posts on MM to see what was up. This is what I saw: They linked to this video: Here’s a copy of it uploaded onto my channel in case it gets deleted: I deleted both Casey and Zack’s posts, warned Casey and had to go do something before I warned Zack. Within the time it took me to do whatever I did, Casey hit me with a wall of text insulting me, claiming I’m two-faced, despite me rarely speaking to him and just generally being upset because I warned him, claiming I had some personal grudge against him and I’m showing favoritism towards Zack: I didn’t respond because it was just an anger-fueled message. I could’ve warned him again for flaming, harassment or disrespect again for saying this to me. But I didn’t because I really didn’t think it was worth the time. Shortly after this he sent this to me on Discord: He sent this to me, implying that the right thing to do was to message him on Discord, telling him not to do something he should already know not to do instead of just warning him for it. That’s not happening. I was more focused on apologizing to SmasherBlock for him getting such a bad welcome: In short, Casey and Zack tried to flame a new member for unrelated drama, tried to get me to join him in doing it, I warned them both and Casey got very angry." Strike 1. By the way, Casey actually messaged me about Warrens behavior at some point and he admitted himself that he jumped the gun when he sent Warren that PM calling him two-faced: But he didn't go to Warren to tell him this, he told me and that was all. Never apologized to the guy for trying to come at his neck, just said "I'll take that L" to me. My conversations with him went like this: He messaged me about the first doc Dez made and opened up with this Who even opens up with this when you’re trying to convince somebody to do something? Literally who? He’s implying that I’m either of these things without knowing me. I've only talked to him a few times before, but not enough for him to gather all of this. He just said it because he doesn’t care. Actually, I don’t know. He said this to me: But the fact that he opened up with “You guys need to be open minded and understanding and not egotistical.” Doesn’t make me want to talk to him and I doubt it’d make anybody else want to talk to him either. It’s just a rude thing to say. Strike 2. Strike 3. Another one with me: the day he actually got kicked for this. For one, this didn’t need to happen and if Casey hadn’t said ANYTHING he’d probably still be here. Anyways, he got extremely aggressive with me for no reason, trying to shit on me because I misspoke. I admitted that. I said word for word “I misspoke.” That wasn’t good enough for him and the moment he escalated it, I already decided he was going to get kicked. There was no way around that. The conversation after that was just him trying to essentially bring Taki down with him when I kicked him. Also, he continued to insult me here too which was fun. As for Taki "disrespecting so many people in general cause he has such a big ego" it's so easy to search the guy's name and see that this isn't the case. I think this is the first time in a long time I've seen Taki act like this in public, he jokes around a bunch in general and gives a lot of critique to people in the sprites section, but being disrespectful is the last thing I get from his messages. He did mess up on 5/14 and I am keeping note of that, but it didn't warrant me kicking him like Casey wanted. It's not biased if Taki doesn't have the same record of fucking up as Casey does. Oh, going back to the doc that Dez wrote for a second she says “Had TAKI not said ANYTHING, Casey would not have said anything.” The reason that this happened was BECAUSE Casey said something 4 whole hours after the conversation was over (and in the wrong channel no less.) By the way, Dez complained about snakes and tried to say that we had instigated everything, but BOY do I have a story for you. Spoiler: Privacy 7/9/18 - 3/8/19 "You shouldn’t even have access to this stuff, so stop acting all high and mighty, as though you’ve done no wrong. It’s an invasion of privacy. We shouldn’t have to worry about SPIES in our own discord server. We animate fucking pixels for christ sake." -Dez The staff of MM shouldn't have to worry about snakes either. If you didn't hear about it, Vash had tried to get Warren fired because Warren said something about Vash in the staff chat. Not to act on it, he simply wanted to voice how he felt which is fine in my eyes. It's already out in the open so here: Vash caught wind of this because of a certain someone and proceeds to send this to Warren: Know this: Warren is not/was not obligated to respond to this. This was a personal thing that Vash had against him for no real reason and he shouldn't be held responsible for not responding to this. None of us even encouraged him to reply because it was Vash acting based off of a leak. Why would he even bother? I see no reason to. But I wonder who could have leaked this? And why? No hard feelings Shulkle, but this should be public after what Dez said: Shulkle admitted to me (before I fired him) that he was the snake. He sent every single thing from the staff chat and our private friend group to PR. He didn't do this on his own, THEY pushed him into it according to Shulkle. So, why is it that Dez is complaining about snakes when she was the first one to do it? To push someone into giving her info that she shouldn't have. More on Dez's kick: She complained to Shulkle, Shulkle gave her an explanation, and then she cuts the dude off completely. They had been friends for a while now, long before this shit even started and she just ended it in seconds because she doesn't agree with the reason for her kick. He wasn't even behind the kick either. Also since she wants to use leaks as evidence, then I'll let you all see this: The context behind this screenshot is while Dez was giving criticisms on 7/5/18, she felt cornered and couldn't explain or provide evidence for her own point so she decided to go to PR and say this. That's why if you scroll back up to the first spoiler you'll see that Dez didn't really say that much during the entire thing even though she was the one who initiated the conversation and Vash was doing most of the talking. We didn't ask for this screenshot. We were given this screenshot on that same day that all of this happened, but we never used it and didn't want to as it would be unjust considering it happened outside of MM, but they've gone out of their way to have a snake in the MM staff chat and use screenshots first. We have no reason to keep this private anymore. Spoiler: Tate 5/14/19 So, this was all really convenient timing on Tate’s end since Casey had just been kicked, but I’ll ignore that for now. The main focus here is what happened after. Tate comes in the MM Discord looking for the people in charge and drops a bomb on us saying that he wants to destroy the forum. Complete wipe. I set up a group DM with Karasu and Tate to discuss it further and Tate was mostly saying that he wanted his past gone for personal reasons, which was fine. We were starting to open up to the idea of a “pre-Karasu wipe,” but we were still thinking about it and we also wanted to figure out what the other staff thought before we took any action. You all know what happened after this and I will let you know that we are not responsible for this. Tate went behind our backs and just deleted everything before we even had the chance to warn people that this was going to happen and what’s even worse is that he got Aidan to erase that part of the forum, someone that Karasu thought he could trust and Aidan stomped all over that. Here's a screenshot of him searching for the spam clean function in Xenforo that night. Also, he was seen "performing moderator duties" that night as well (May 14th). Spoiler: Mistakes I couldn't find anywhere else to fit this, but we aren't completely innocent either. We have made mistakes and owned up to them and one of them was when Warren refused to let Jaws and Vash in MM. I asked him about it and this is what he had to say: "It’s worth noting that a mistake was made at one point when Vash and Jaws tried to join the MM Discord at one point and I spearheaded giving a message to both of them that was addressed to only Vash saying they can’t come in due to the raids that happened. I did not articulate who I was addressing that to properly and I made a vague and broad statement. I tried offering a sincere apology to Vash because a bunch of docs were being passed around saying I treated him unfairly and someone named Gabby, a friend of Vash’s came to him saying that he wanted an apology from me. (Mind you this is after he manipulated Shulkle into leaking stuff from staff and trying to get me fired but we didn’t know him and Dez pushed him into doing it at this moment) Neil told me about it, I tried to add him on Discord so we could talk, I already had an apology pre-written ready to just copy and paste but he never accepted the invite. I told Neil about it. Vash is still complaining now that I never tried to apologize." When I spoke to Gabby on 3/8, she let me know that she told Vash what was going to happen with Warren and he said that he'll wait for Warren to take the first step. He tried, and Vash didn't accept his friend request so Warren could apologize even though he knew Warren would try: I even have the apology he wrote for Vash: This along with the other mistakes: letting people talk to John like trash, the thing with "art thief," Kim letting Dez into MM after we had already established she wouldn't be allowed in here, and the way I worded what I said to Casey were all things that I'm more than okay with owning up to and so is everybody else. Really, we should have dealt with this before it got to this point, that's our fault for not kicking Dez, Casey, and Vash sooner. Conclusion All of this has been going on for too long and we’re stopping it now. Dez, Casey, Vash, Aidan, and Tate will be banned before I make this thread. While they may have contributed to the forum in the past, they cannot stay here after their actions. They’re gone. We’re dropping the subject and it’s going to stay this way. Do not try to convince us to change our minds on this, it's final. You can talk about it in the chatroom in the Discord, but do NOT post anything about this in feedback and suggestions and don't come to us in DMs to tell us about a response from them either. We just don't care about this PR business anymore. If you have any criticism for us, do not do this. Don’t end up like these guys. Just talk to us and we’ll listen, we want to improve this place for the better and we do want feedback. The takeaway from this is if you want things to happen for this forum: talk genuinely, politely, concisely, and most importantly directly. If you truly want to make this place better, work with us, not against us. Don't worry about Maplemation dying, we've lived through more than this. We've been planning out a bunch of stuff to do for the forum to keep things fresh and lively. Stick around and you'll find out! EDIT: Since the thread has had a week to simmer, we want to close the topic on this PR thing. We're ending it here and we're not interested in further contact. P.S. MM wack, so don't come back.