MBR: Kayas vs Drew

Discussion in 'Archived MBRs' started by Kayas , Jul 7, 2019.

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  1. Fahyda

    Fahyda Meme stealer

    May 3, 2017
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    Man those were some great fights.

    I feel kayas had better lighting due to the fact it fit the night theme better and I liked the feel of the hits better. However it was kind difficult to follow in certain situations due to how you played with the perspective.

    However my vote has to go to drew.
    Even though his lighting could be fixed up a bit (especially with the alleyway at the start), I personally preferred how he used much more of the background for the fight, giving it a much more broader scale. It was also easier to follow due to the fact that the camera had a good amount of space throughout to let the viewer see what is going on.

    The only other reason I want to vote for drew is because even though you were both telling this as one big story, only drew actually focused on the fight between both of your characters while Kayas instead made his character fight a different character.

    Still tho, even though this took a long time, this was well worth the wait, now I just need to wait for some fight animation collabs to come out so I can show some of my more recient fights and get into this system
  2. Mespaint

    Mespaint Low-Tier Spirit

    Sep 11, 2018
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    United States
    My vote goes for Kayas.

    I really dig the collaboration direction you both took, and I respect the effort you guys did for this. If I was a newcomer to the community I would've thought this project was made by a team rather than a single animator per entry.

    Kayas' part was a big jump in quality compared to Drew's entry, and it just executed much more eye-candy flare in my opinion. I have not seen a Maplestory sprite animation with this much creativity in angles, unique atmosphere, and effects. (That dark-lighting sequence was sick! - Kayas part)

    Drew, your part was great and I enjoyed watching it, but it did not bring out as much spark compared to Kayas' entry. Good job regardless, and I wish you both good luck on future projects.

    Thank you both for an entertaining show!
    quentin galloway, Drew and Kayas like this.
  3. Blanc

    Blanc Not french

    Feb 23, 2019
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    Somewhere in the Canadian wilderness
    Jesus, what a show we were blessed with today!

    I'm going to go over every little thing that comes to mind, so I'm putting this up here right away.
    My vote goes to Kayas.

    It's worth noting for criticism that I am not an animator, at least not yet, so a ton of what I'm bringing up may just be my personal taste.
    I try to avoid criticism and feedback if I cannot think of a solution to it, but again I'm not an animator and have no idea how after effects works so I apologize if I fail to give properly constructive criticism.

    Final note, I will be watching the whole mbr in order (the full 13-minute video on the MM youtube) while writing this, so I will mention timestamps from this video as opposed to posting a hundred screenshots.

    • Right from the start, your color choice, perspective, shadows, everything is gorgeous. It captures the mood so incredibly well, and I cannot commend you enough for this.
    • Is this the future of rigging?! Seriously, your animations are so incredibly smooth during the scene from 1:08 ~ 1:20, it's hard to believe it's even spritework at this point. This little rooftop running scene is one of my favorites in the entire animation simply because of the perspective and how clean it all is.
    • @1:25 Oh my the atmosphere, the pressure, the camera angles!
      • Your camera work is such an incredible improvement in this MBR. Previously I've mentioned that your camera work is hard to follow, and it disrupts a lot of what you're going for, but I cannot disagree with that statement more for this work of yours! Creative, interesting, and incredible shots are being pulled off constantly, and most of it doesn't interrupt the flow of the animation whatsoever. Brilliant improvement!
    • 1:45 pitch black scene done well, oh how I love it. The sparks briefly revealing parts of the sprites is a lovely detail. Going out of your way to do this for this one shot was a brilliant creative touch.
    • Your characters motives are written and animated well. I previously did not care much for the character, but I'm finding his personality intriguing to watch in combat. The way he fights and talks throughout the fight lines up quite well with his personality and mental state, and it does well for creating a strong memorable character.
    • ooooh my, chills when the Murderer backs into the shadows, this small shot is so well done, the smooth eye trail is edgy in all the right ways.
    • Lastly, the way you put your shadows in the walls and background is very good. It adds a lot of much-needed depth and helps the already livid backgrounds feel much more aligned with the fight. I am only pointing this out as this is something that Drew struggles to do a lot in his animation
    • Small gripe, but you overdid the static a little too much during the beginning flashback. It gets in the way a tiny bit too much
    • You really should work on improving your subtitles. Maybe it's just this character, or maybe it's just the scene, but during the beginning during the flashback, the Murderer talks/thinks to himself in 3rd person like an announcer, and it's very odd to see. Things like "I had to kill... I needed to kill, so I went for the first woman I saw", and "and now, the police are coming" don't seem to fit the way I would perceive someone who is batshit insane thinks to and responds to themselves. Some shows and anime like Hunter x Hunter do announcers and 3rd person subtitles/thoughts very well, so perhaps look through that, if you can agree with what I'm saying anyways
      • to extend on this, replacing some things like the police quote with "looks like it's time for me to go" or something could work and isn't as awkwardly 3rd person
      • Alternatively, you could have just completely cut the subtitles out, and sped up the flashback considerably. This would have made the pace faster, and more aligned with the rest of the animation, but may not have been as cinematically pleasing(?)
      • This happens again after the combat ends @ around 3:50.
        "I can't fight him, plus I'm way too injured to move"
        >proceeds to run away at full speed, jumping across buildings and eventually engaging in full speed combat.
        A slight improvement on wording could be "I can't fight him, I'm way too injured right now". Sounds smoother, at least to me, and helps make the above contradiction less noticeable
    • I believe it's been mentioned in other responses, but the volume of the Murderer's voice lines is very very loud in comparison to the rest of what's happening. I believe Drew made a few noises (?), but I cannot tell as they're immediately drowned out/silenced by other sound effects. Perhaps just making those a bit louder instead would work? I won't dwell on it.
    • Dudes eyes became smaller than a single pixel @ 2:30. Too small, and it gets too small too quick. Smoother ease would be epic
    • The camera for the combat with Drew up until around 2:48 is a little bit too much. It's not bad, but it's getting back to your old problems with it rotating and turning just a little bit too fast. I'm not good with the camera myself, but perhaps zooming out a little bit during some of these scenes would help center the action just a little more(?)
    • Additional minor detail, but there are multiple frames where Drews face reverts after being bloodied. It's not noticeable unless you watch it slowed down or you watch it multiple times, but it still oughta be consistent.
    • Okay, I get why you did this, but at 3:40 when Desmond stops the murder from killing Drew, you repeat the same sound effect for like 6 seconds? This could be easily fixed by just slightly wavering the pitch or something, but it's not, which is a bit odd. It's easily the smallest gripe I have with your whole animation, but the little things count!
    • When Desmond's sword retracts, it looks like it comes in from the left, yet the guard with the gun points it more towards the right. A small thing that could be fixed easily, yet it stuck out to me.
      • Lol Desmond's eyes trail to his right when they spot Drew, but when the camera goes to his perspective Drew is straight in front of him, or if not, to his left
    What an animation. This is definitely going down in my books of reference material, as I absolutely love your pacing, atmosphere, mapping, effects, background audio choice, and everything in between. Most every flaw I've had with your animations previously was addressed or at minimum improved upon in this animation, as I had hoped with the time you spent on it. Good job, you've definitely earned my vote.
    Just a standard forewarning. I am biased in favor of Kayas's animation due to the nature of direct side-by-side comparisons, but this does not mean that Drew underperformed as an animator, nor that I dislike his animation. I apologize if I come off as saying as such
    • Due to there being less in the background compared to Kayas's animation, it is indeed easier to focus on what's happening between the characters. That being said, I didn't find it particularly hard to focus on the characters in Kayas's animations, so I don't see this as a huge positive in the first place.
    • As I've seen in the past, you've got fairly good camera angles that keep things more dynamic than standard camera work. You can improve upon this still, but I'm not the right person to tell you how, as I suck at this myself.
    • I'm surprised, Drew, your swordplay is clean asf! If you had kept the pace of the swordplay moments at 5:42, and 6:38 then your combat would definitely have been on par with Kayas's in terms of pacing and actual movement. I look forward to seeing more improvements like this in the future!
    • I feel like you get this a lot, but you've developed a certain style that goes really well as a cinematic storytelling style, and that you did well, and while it interrupted the actual fight, thus making me not a big fan, I will give you credit where credit is due.
    • Damn what a finisher. Although it sort of came out of nowhere, the finisher was good. Sound effects definitely could have been a little sharper to emulate cutting a bit better, but the final impact was great, and the last kick was clearly meant to close the fight out
    • The ending scene was a very good display of both personalities. Perhaps you should have made the rain clear near the end for that added effect of "the evil villain is no more"
    • Right away, it's noticeable when the animator swaps. The map becomes much brighter, the shadows and distant objects being darker and blurred stops, and the world becomes significantly emptier, which is a far bigger hindrance than expected.
      • In Drew's solo animation while Murderer is running away from Desmond in the beginning, the shadows and lighting is very dim. This is something that inexperienced artists tend to do, in that they make their shadows super light and dull. It's counterproductive, and almost invisible without pausing to take a closer look. Much stronger shadows would definitely help give more of an alley-way feel
    • While you have much better pacing than in your previous animations, you still tend to break your pace frequently with little scenes of dialogue and interaction that could very easily be cut out, or reduced in length. 6:40 I'll give a pass, as the Murderer acts on this pause to cut him off, thus it's less of a time stop like a lot of the other pauses, and more of a small distraction/side thought.
    • 7:12, not sure what happened during the fall scene, but you seem to forget about impact with the building. You add very little friction to it outside when Murderer pushes Desmond with his whole body against the wall. More impact effects and dust on the walls here would have helped this feel much much more realistic.
      • Side note, I can't help but think this shot could have been super pretty if there were more background refraction (is that the right term?) and more bright lights in the background as Desmond was getting beaten up. For the city in the background being as big as it is, it's surprisingly dull.
    • Most of the colors chosen for this animation are very dull and monotone and they stay this dull gray shade for nearly the entire animation. It's not very pleasing to look at and is a shame as stated in the above point.
      A big city during the night is stereotypically seen with lots of bright neon signs and lights lighting the city up, leaving the alleys to the darkness and dimly lit moonlight, but you show no signs of this. It's sometimes contrasted by bright blue effects and the likes, but they're not around nearly enough for this issue to be evaded.
    • 7:48, I cannot tell what this scene is. If not for the scene after I would have no idea that he was running up the height of an elevator shaft. This is partially due to the door being the same monotone silver as the rest of the map around him, and there being no distinct way to tell that the elevator has some semblance of relation to this scene. I'm not sure if it would have been necessary to add a shine or something on the elevator to make it catch your eye, but perhaps if the building was super dark inside, with a single light flickering on above the elevator or something to make it stand out a little more it would have been noticed sooner. Perhaps this is just how I perceived it though.
    Drew's animation was good. It had a good map to work with, even if a little empty, solid sound effects, visual effects, and camera work leads me to say that your animation is good. It's only lacking because it's being directly compared to Kayas's animation, which to me was one of the closest animations to perfection that I've seen come out of this community in a very long time.
    Drew, I wholeheartedly congratulate your work of art. It was a brilliant animation that really pushed you to improve and work harder than you have in the past, and it really shows. Most all of the gripes I've had with your animations in the past were more than made up for and improved upon, and you've shown us that you've got huge potential to improve, and I cannot wait to see you evolve as an artist as time goes on.
    Silver is no longer a fair rank placement for you in my opinion.

    Also sorry I didn't bring up as much with yours as I did with Kayas's, I kept getting distracted writing this out, so I tried to cut it short so I can get around to doing life things while there's still daylight :pensive:
    #23 Blanc, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    Hatim , Dally , Drew and 2 others like this.
  4. spritefan2

    spritefan2 Retired Staff
    Retired Staff

    Feb 8, 2010
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    Damn. This is an MBR to vote for. It's really close, but Kayas wins it for me.

    The attention to detail with the 3D maps & lighting is easily some of the best I've ever seen in any sprite animation. So on that technical (and artistic) effort & achievement, it earns so many points in my book to win this - - That in tandem with all the camera animation, it was fantastic, proper motion arcs and easing applied to it. Also I really enjoyed the music/sound design. & The pacing + story overall built a lot of tension & suspense. I love the cops and the amount of introspection & strategy we see of the murderer throughout the fight.

    Daaaang dude. Overall, I think you created the better traditional fight animation. The back and forth between the characters, all of the location areas for the fight, were all super impressive and well done. Both the duration and quality of the fight were on point and it was a joy to watch. :D

    I'd write more for u two, but I'm at work lol. But I keep thinking about your guys' animations so I wanted to spill some more thoughts UwU. But wow, congrats to both of you for completing these beasts!
    Dally , Drew, Hunter and 2 others like this.
  5. Neil

    Neil "Oops"

    Jan 23, 2012
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    My vote goes to Kayas.
    Everything from the map, sounds, camming, and choreography was just perfect. You put a ton of work into this and it really shows.
    I especially like that rotation you did around 2m40s.
    Drew, you should really focus on making your animations less stiff and your posing since those are the general issues I've noticed with your animations for a while. You still need work, but you'll get there with the right amount of practice.

    Great job both of you and thank you both so much for putting this much time into the MBR!

    I'm killing both of you for using all those japanese voice clips btw.
  6. Hunter

    Hunter Moderator

    Feb 5, 2010
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    Oh my gosh, two well-done animations.
    This was hard for me to decide.

    Kayas: Just a tidbit picking, I did see a few inconsistency though, it was extremely small details that were hard to notice by others if they don't have a keen eye for it. However, I have nothing more to say about it, it was well executed by today's standard, the same goes for Drew's.

    Drew: Holy crap dude, you've improved the overall fight style and pacing, always found it to be a bit tad slow to my liking in the past but was still good nonetheless. Like I said in the previous comment for Kayas, extremely well executed. However, I know it's difficult to work with maps in whatever program you were using to create it but it barely compares to Kayas' overall map with more depth to the details and such. That was one of my big ones after I saw both of the animations, still a nice work nonetheless.

    The dialogue, animation, idea, all of that was absolutely FANTASTIC to watch but just for the immersion overall that is extremely hard to pull off.
    Don't get me wrong. If I could vote for both side, I'd do it with no doubt because both of the works is just that good and evenly matched.
    I'd go more in details but kept forgetting that I had to make comment in order to vote. big rip pepehands

    However, as much I had a hard time deciding and have to pick one person, I have to go with Kayas'.
    Was a good fight both of ya. <3
  7. Hatim

    Hatim Love Emperor

    May 4, 2012
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    Arcane River
    Finally, some good fucking food. Vote goes to Kayas.

    By far your best work in my opinion. Your composition has improved a lot and there's clear potential if you focus on adjusting your weaknesses and expand on what you're already good at.

    This whole animation feels like a blend of all that you've learned so far, you're clearly breaking new grounds and putting every technique you know to your advantage. With more animations to come you'll get more opportunities to figure out how to create a better synergy between 2D and 3D shots as well as convey depth and perspective much more seamlessly. Proud of you habibi. [​IMG]

    Thank you both for taking time out of your busy lives to prepare such a grand opening for the new MBR system.

    Neil , Dally , Drew and 2 others like this.
  8. Kayas

    Kayas The Indolent
    Animation Leader

    Dec 2, 2014
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    Because this is a debut MBR without the standard timeframe and challenge - it will be treated as we are both the same rank with a pool of 30 points.
    The votes are 18-4 for myself and Drew respectively.
    The calculations come off to giving:
    +25 points for me (176 > 201 - ranked up to diamond)
    -20 points for Drew (91 > 71)
    Thank you for your votes and for making the debut of the new system a blast, and thank you @Drew for giving an extremely strong entry to start off the system. Locking and moving thread now while updating the profiles.

    P.S. ty habibi [​IMG]
    #28 Kayas , Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    Hunter , Neil , Dally and 4 others like this.
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